First Diversity Recruitment and
Retention in Debate Ideafest
Edited
by Gordon R. Mitchell
University
of Pittsburgh
Published
by Office of the Dean
University
of Pittsburgh
Ideafest
convened at
Emory
University
Atlanta,
GA
June
10-11, 1997
Final panel (The Impact)
Sean Banks, Kenya Hansford, Johnny Jester, Edward Lee,
Eric Mathes, Krsna Tibbs, Carol Winkler, Bill Newnam
Editor's
note: Bill
Newnam's introduction was not videotaped.
After this introduction, Tuna Snider suggested that the rest of the
discussion be recorded and following a short break, a video camera was
assembled and the panel discussion proceeded.
Kenya
Hansford:
Hello, my name is Kenya Hansford; I came from Harper High School in the Atlanta
public school system. I'm now at
business school here at Emory. The
way that debate helped me; it taught me how to speak, and that's something that
you might not learn in the Atlanta public school system, unless you are taught
it. It also taught me how to
present myself to different types of people that I hadn't even been exposed
to. Lastly, it gave me the
opportunity to meet Melissa Wade.
I think she has made a great influence on me.
Eric
Mathes: Hi, my name is Eric Mathes, I graduated
from Harper-Archer here in the Atlanta public schools. I now attend Georgia State, where I'm a
debater. The way debate helped me
... whew ... this will be a long one ... Before debate, I was a knuckle-headed
kid, always getting in trouble.
One thing debate did teach me how to do was to lie. I do that pretty well. My first time coming to a debate camp
was kind of a hectic one for some people: Ed, Melissa ... I gave a lot of
people headaches at that time. By
the end, we had the tournament, and we went 1-3, and I figured out that we
could actually beat people. So for
the following year I committed myself to debating and being a model
student. And in addition to
meeting people like Betty Maddox, Larry Moss, Melissa Wade, and other people
who have helped change my life around.
The following year, I graduated, which was an honor; it allowed me to be
one of the lab instructors here.
Because of Melissa, I was able to meet David Cheshier who gave me an
opportunity to debate. Debate has
helped me so much that if it wasn't for debate, I probably would not have
graduated from high school, and I'd probably be in jail or somewhere where I
shouldn't have been. But debate
gave me the opportunity, it gave me a second chance in life, and I thank
everyone involved.
Shanara
Reid: Hi everybody. My name's Shanara Reid. I graduated from Therrell High School here under Dr. Larry
Moss, and I'm a rising junior here at Emory University under Melissa Wade. I've talked to everybody about what my
debate experience was, and how I was before that. I was very quiet; I had very low self-esteem. That's a complete turnaround from what
I am now. Debate helps you in your
academic classes. But for me, what
it gave me was a sense of power, a sense of myself; it helped develop my
personality. I think I would have
been so different. I don't think
that I might not have gone to college, but I probably would not have gone to
Emory University; I probably would have been at some other school where there
wasn't a debate team, where I didn't have the kind of family support that I
have here with Melissa. I think
that's a big difference compared to where I could have gone. I think I went down a different
road. I'm not sure what that road
was, because I got into debate at such an early age. I think that for me, debate served a purpose, not only to
get me to college, but to help me with all of my relationships with other
people, especially with different cultural groups. I went to an all black high school, I went to an all-black
middle school, I went to an all-black elementary school, and I had no contact
with anyone from another race beside African-American. If anything, debate taught me how to
deal with other cultures and to be able to survive in this world. It taught me not to tolerate other
people but to actually make friends and trust other people. That's something I probably would not
have done. Dr. Moss talked earlier
about not giving people ammunition to use against you. I was taught at a very young age that
anyone who was not African-American was the enemy, and that's how they have to
be considered, and that you shouldn't trust anyone who wasn't
African-American. That was a
lesson that I learned at a very young age. I've learned that that's not true; that there are people
like Melissa Wade, who genuinely care, and who will do whatever possible to
make you a success. That's
something that saved me from being a totally bitter person about race
relations, and I think that the most profound thing that happened to me, was my
recognition that debate is not just about the winning; it's about what it can
do for you in your personal life.
I thank God that that happened to me, because I think it would have been
a completely different situation.
Sean
Banks: Hello, everyone, my name is Sean
Banks. I, too, had the same
problem as Shanara, going to Therrell High School. When I first entered debate, I was very closed-minded. The first time I went to camp at
Michigan, I was very scared because I had never really been around a large
group of people who wasn't like me.
I didn't know what to do; I felt like I was going to be fighting, or
there was going to be a lot of racial problems. I guess I was scared because as soon as I got there, there
had been a race riot and everything.
Debate taught me how to work with other people and how to become
open-minded, to show that everyone isn't evil, that everyone doesn't
necessarily dislike somebody from the other race, everyone is not racist,
everyone doesn't just like their kind, to show that everyone cares. And also to show that other kids of the
opposite race had the same fear, and that they felt that, wow, what's going to
happen here with this black person?
Is he going to be in a gang, or something like that? Debate helps everyone. It helped me because it allowed me to
speak better, to become a better person, to be more political, because a lot of
people in my community don't necessarily know what goes on outside of their homes,
outside of their communities.
Debate has helped me shine above others in the sense that many people
aren't able to let go of what they're used to, and become used to something
different, to adapt; to change.
Debate showed me how to change, and showed me that some of the things
that I was doing wrong were not the things to do, showed me how to do things
better. I believe that debate is
something that you should do, or that you should be able to get into, for the
simple fact that it breaks the barrier between youth and youth racism, between
black kids and white kids and kids of other races; it breaks that barrier and
helps everyone. And that's
basically how debate has helped me besides school and everything. It's helped me to excel in school, and
helped me to excel in every realm possible because of the simple fact that it
helps you think critically, and helps you to observe everything. It helps me at home because I get to
weigh everything my mother is saying; you know, what her reasons are, or just everything;
it helps a lot.
Edward
Lee: I am Edward Lee. I am a graduate from Charles Harper
High School here in Atlanta, and also a graduate at the University of
Alabama. Starting this fall I will
be a graduate assistant for the University of Alabama's debate team. For me, debate has become synonymous
with opportunity. It has provided
me with many opportunities that people I grew up with were not afforded. I was listening to yesterday, and on
the drive home, I thought about something someone said at the conference. Someone said that debate saves
lives. When I think that there
have been four people that I graduated elementary school with, who I'm close
friends with, who have died in a span of less than seven years. There have been many others who are
currently in jail, with no opportunity.
By luck, I'm not there. And
it's because of the opportunities that debate has provided me, and debate has
provided the other people who are sitting here; it has also given me not only a
political view, but it has radicalized my political view. I now understand that it's not me; it's
us, that all of our oppressions are inter-linked. It's irrelevant if I am no longer judged by the color of my
skin but by the content of my character.
There are still women who are oppressed because of their sex. There are still other women and men who
are oppressed because of their sexual orientation, and until we all say that we
will not accept any of those oppressions, we are all still oppressed. I am lucky that debate has provided me
with many strong women in my background.
I was introduced to debate by Ms. Betty Maddox at Harper High School,
who was my English teacher, and became my role model for life. And at the University of Alabama, Dr.
Carrie Crenshaw, well, Carrie, my mentor and friend, introduced me debate. I have learned that my education has
come from debate. My education has
come from debate. What I know and
my political views have come from debate.
I think it saved my life, and it has saved many others.
Krsna
Tibbs: My name is Krsna Tibbs. I was a policy debater at Therrell High
School. I agree pretty much with
everything that they have just said.
I have the same educational background. I went to an all-black elementary school, middle school, and
high school. I can't tell you how
much debate has affected me. Like
all of you are saying, debate has helped develop my personality and had a
dramatic effect on my life. All of
the things that I do on a daily basis I attribute to debate. I use the skills I developed in debate
constantly, and I know that I'll use them in the future. One point I want to bring up, I was
reading the brochure that Melissa gave out, not because she said to read it,
but she said you should read these quotes. When I was reading it, one of the quotes I think I take the
hardest was the one about how that debate allowed him to have certain goals
that they didn't think were accessible, are now accessible; that they feel they
can now attain these goals, and that's true with me. When I fist got started in debate, I didn't have peers in college,
let alone anyone that debated in college.
Through debate I was able to network with different debaters throughout
the nation, and many who are my friends today, and now I'm debating in college. Debate has completely opened up my
mind; it's completely changed me, and has allowed me to know that there's a
different world out there. It has
raised my standard of what I think could be a success, and even changed my mind
about what goals I think I can attain.
I think all of that is attributed to debate.
Johnny
Jester: My name is Johnny Jester, and I attend
Therrell High School. I am a
second-year debater under Dr. Moss.
Debate, for me is precious.
I grew up in southwest Atlanta, in a low economic neighborhood, and I
went to an all-black elementary school, like everybody else, and when I was
smaller, all of my friends went to play on the football, basketball, baseball
teams. I was never really good at
any of those, but when debate came to my life it was something that I could be
good at, and it was something I could show myself in. Debate for me has been the way I express myself, and it has
changed my life completely. The
kids I went to elementary and middle school with, some of those kids aren't
even in school anymore. I have one
very close friend who doesn't even attend school anymore. Some of them have children. When I say children, I do mean in the
plural sense children. They're
sixteen or seventeen, and when I look back, that could have been me. That could have been me pushing like
three strollers, that could have been me not being in school. Debate was just a turnaround for
me. I realized that you could
either live this all of your life or you could do something to better
yourself. Debate has also opened
my mind. Just like many of the
people up here before, when I started debate, I thought white people had
something serious against black people.
A lot of my parents and friends say, you know, you can't trust white
people. Now that I've gotten out
and I have white friends, especially meeting people like Ms. Wade and Jim,
Jamie [McKown], and all of these people who are white people who have helped
me, without debate I wouldn't have met people; I would still be the same
closed-minded person who was coming out of middle school. I think debate is a part of my life
that I don't think I could live without it. If I had to do it all over again, if I had not chosen
debate, I don't think that I would be sitting before you today. I think I would probably be somewhere
pushing a stroller.
[laughter]
Carol
Winkler: I'm Carol Winkler, I'm pushing two
strollers. I began debating at a
high school up in a farm community in the mountains of North Carolina. In a class of about 1,000, ten went on
to college. I debated for ten
years and it fundamentally changed my life to the point that I can't imagine
myself divorced from my debate experience at this point. I guess what makes me a little bit
different from the panelists is that I left debate because I did think that it
was a sexist, racist activity, and I became very frustrated. I wanted to be a debate coach, but
decided that I didn't want to do that, because I viewed the activity as racist
and sexist. I then went into the
"real world," where I went into an academic environment, and I
quickly found myself in very similar situations where white men dominated all
of the environments I was in. I am
now chair of a department where I rarely interact with people who are not white
men. So, I was in the same
situation; I guess what I take from debate, and something that is unique that
women take from debate that others do not, is the ability to respond to
discrimination or harassment in the workplace or in society that they wouldn't
be able to otherwise. Having been
through the experience of sexual harassment in the workplace, I've discovered
that a woman with debate skills is a very scary thing for those that actually
practice sexual harassment.
Nevertheless, it has resulted in a lot more change than my university
would have considered had I not had those skills. I think at this point I'm basically in a love/hate
relationship with the activity, in saying that it taught me how to deal with
many of the things that I have to continue to deal with on a daily basis. And I very much love the people that I
came to know. The hate side is
that I would have loved to stay in it, because it's probably the single
activity in my life that I care for the most.
Melissa
Wade: I
would like you to ask them questions.
What do you want to know after two days? Is there anything you'd like to say to them?
Edward
Lee:
Not all at once.
[laughter]
Tuna
Snider: I guess that many of us have been
concerned with finding the pivotal people who have made such a contribution to
your lives. I am not assuming that
there will people like Betty and Mr. Moss in every school that you go to, but
do you think that there are teachers out there that we can reach to try and
duplicate some of the wonderful things that you've seen done? Do you have confidence that they're
there, that we can go out and try to find them and try to work with them?
Sharara
Reid:
That [Larry Moss] was not my only influence in high school. He was very, very pivotal to the
changes I made in high school, but there are other teachers who are very much
interested in caring about what happens to students, and a lot of the
confidence that I got came from debate.
But more of it came from the nurturing I got at Therrell High
School. I said that I went to an
all African-American high school, and that may not have afforded me all the
opportunities that I would have if I would have gone to another school, but
debate helped with that. But there
were teachers who were very into allowing us to know what was necessary to go
to college, and some of those people were very influential in my life, besides
just Dr. Moss and Melissa, who I've noted in other opportunities. But I think that definitely, the
teachers are there; it's just finding the teachers, finding who's interested,
finding who cares. They're
there. If the students are there,
the teachers are there.
Johnny
Jester:
I think that there are a millions of them. There are so many teachers out there, so many people in
positions of power that care. Me
personally, I think that the thing that stops people who care from helping is
the fear of failure, the fear that they'll help this person so much, and then
this person won't grow. It takes a
very special person to ever become a teacher, or an instructor, or a mentor. If a person has that in them, to become
a teacher, or an instructor, or a mentor,
then that same person is very capable of doing the same things that Dr.
Moss and Ms. Wade do, and all those people do; it's just the opportunity,
that's all.
Ede
Warner:
I have a question. Bill said
earlier that fifteen years ago, I was one of very few black folks, faces like
mine. Fifteen years later, I'm one
of the very few faces like mine in the black coaching ranks. And you guys, and gals, and women, and
men ... if I could use the right terminology ... [laughter] ... you have said
some things that have touched me very deeply. I'd like to hear from each of you what you are willing to do
to make sure that fifteen years from now, there will be more than just me
sitting up here.
Shanara
Reid: Part of it is that we're here, participating
in the activity. I think that we
can't try to count it or try to quantify our commitment to giving back. I think the fact that Krsna and Edward
and I and Kenya and Eric have stayed in the activity after high school says a
lot. I quit my senior year in high
school; I was tired of the racism, tired of the sexism. I got to Emory, didn't want to debate
my freshman year. Melissa sat me
down and she said, "You have an obligation; there aren't that many
African-American females in the activity." Cleopatra Jones who was one of the only African-American
females to participate in a long time was about to graduate, and I was one of
the only ones, and Kenya [Hansford] was one of the only ones, and we have an
obligation to give back in that manner.
I've chosen to go beyond that and participate with the Soros Foundation
and the Urban Debate League, trying to set up programs in New York, and I still
go out and coach different high schools in the Atlanta public school area, and
in junior high. But that's something
that I've chosen to do myself, and I don't think we can quantify how much we
give back, but that's my way of giving back. I think that just staying with the activity past high school
is giving back enough. It's very,
very hard. It's very stressful as
an activity where you are one of a few faces. You have to go through the emotional turmoil that comes
along with that. Anybody that
chooses not to do that, I still respect them, because they did it in high
school, and if you choose not to do that in college, I don't look down on them
for not doing that, because it's hard.
Edward
Lee:
When I say that I owe my life to this activity, I mean that, and I have been
contemplating over the years exactly what I want to do with the rest of my
life. I thought about the law, and
that doesn't seem to be very rewarding for me. I don't understand what the impact would be in
participating in that. I always
come back to what can I do to have the greatest influence on people like me, in
the same situation I was in. It
seems to me that that decision, the answer always comes down to being a
teacher,
being there, and where they are, in their situation, and wallowing in it with them. That is what I've decided to do with my
life. I'm going to be a teacher,
with those students, and wallow in it with them. I won't become rich, but I will be fulfilled, because I am
at least adding my piece to the puzzle of what the answer is to solve all our
problems. That's my personal
choice; that may not be the best answer for everyone, but that's my
answer. We all have to ask what we
are capable of giving to solve the problem; that's what I'm capable of giving,
and that's what I'll give.
Kenya
Hansford: My answer is totally different from any
of the answers you've heard. One,
because I'm not as hard-core debate as everyone up here. But I think that by showing kids how to
apply what they learn in debate, even if they don't want to be hard core
debaters is just as important.
Kids need to know that there's another avenue to do this, and the
curriculum I'm working on for Melissa, it pulls in things other than in debate
into debate for black children.
One part of the curriculum is talking about Harriet Tubman: how do we
tie her into debate? One way of
doing that is that you coach other people on your team. Harriet Tubman didn't just run to
freedom and stay; she ran back and got other people. That's one tool that children in our communities have to
learn in order for debate to be successful, because we have to run back like
Edward, like Shanara, and be sure that we pick up other people and that we have
them to be as successful in debate as we are. But I think that's also an important factor to it, too:
sometimes we do scare kids away.
Sometimes kids are scared, and this isn't the activity for them. But these two weeks of camp can be
still be used for other reasons, for scholarships to schools like Emory, they
could be used to go on to do law, or whatever they choose to do, because
they're learning life skills here, they're learning how to speak, they're
learning how to present themselves.
Those skills can be used in corporate America, without a doubt. Making successful people, I think is our goal
here, not just debaters, but also people that might not debate.
John
Meany:
Almost all of you have used the term debate to describe your experience, but
it's clear that implied is something more than one thinks about when one thinks
about debate. It's not the debate
round itself, or the preparation, but its the social context and cultural context
associated with the institute, or tournament experience, or experience at both
in high school or college. In this
particular program, where there is a limited amount of time to spend with
students, if there is a tradeoff that one needs to make to create a valuable
connection with students, do you think it's better to focus on a social and
cultural connection, to make an institute a worthwhile experience, or is it
better to focus on the academics associated with a more rigorous approach to
policy debate?
Sean
Banks:
I honestly feel that it has to be both, not just one, because you can't just
put a group of kids somewhere and expect them to work and be focused on
something, and they're having concerns about getting along with other kids. You can't expect them to go, you give
them an assignment and say, OK, you go to the library, you and five other kids,
and go work on this. Then they
have fears about working with this person; they won't get anything done. It's equally important, because the
social aspect, like a lot of people said, some people have dropped out because
of the social aspect, because of the racism, because of the sexism or just the
dislikes. So it's important to
have a camp, or an institution, where there is an attempt to work on the social
aspects as well as, at least equal to the fact that you have to make sure that,
to let them know that, OK, you have social problems, or you have social
differences, but they will be worked out, but you're also giving a purpose to
it all, so it's equally important.
Krsna
Tibbs:
I believe that tremendously. I
think that interaction and networking, or whatever, you can begin to understand
other peoples' cultures of people that have a completely different background. A lot of people that come to this institute
don't get to have this ability to interact with other people, to have lectures
with them, debate with them, to talk with them. So I think it's extremely important to come here, because
you not only work on debate; it's also a place to meet friends and talk to
different people on different issues, not just debate issues.
Johnny
Jester:
I also think it's important to have a big focus. What did it for me was the fact that I was able to sit in a
round with people who were not like me, or were not like people I'd been around
all my life, and notice that the same things I was having trouble with, they
were having trouble with the exact same thing, and to know that there is no
superiority or inferiority; they're the same. It's important for people to understand that it's an equal
playing field, and that you only get out of it what you put into it. So I think it's equally important to
stress the social aspects, because if I'm not able to get along with this person,
I won't be able to work with this person.
It's also important to stress the academics. When you go to the library to work with someone, it's
important for that person to know that no matter how I feel about you as a
person, we're here to get a task done.
Since we're getting a task done, I don't care if you're blue; we're
going to get this task done. So,
it's very important to stress both.
Kenya
Hansford:
The Barkley Forum Institute is for that purpose. Part of why we give so many scholarships to inner-city youth
is so that we can funnel them into debate. I don't think we can take a child from the inner city and
take them right to Michigan. I
think some children are exceptional and can do that; they can get right into
the academic side of the debate and not even think about the social side. But there will be some children that
will be afraid of going to somewhere like Michigan, with a whole room of people
that don't look like them, and they won't get anything done, because they're
not used to being in that environment.
I think that's why the Barkley Forum is so important, for it to be one
the first institutes for the summer, so that children can get through the
Barkley Forum and get to a Michigan, or go to an Iowa, and be comfortable
there, and be able to be productive once they get there.
Beth
Breger:
As a lot of you probably know, many of the students from New York City have
never seen a debate in their entire lives. I wonder if you could talk about experience, the first time
you ever saw a debate, if you didn't have Dr. Moss, Ms. Maddox, or Melissa in
your school. What is it that made
you stick with it, and what can we do in New York?
Krsna
Tibbs:
You could do a lot of things. What
Dr. Moss always did with us was that he always challenged us. That's the reason why I stayed in
debate; he always said, what do you want to do? He said it was attainable, as long as you work hard. It was the same thing with Ede
[Warner]. I think that's one thing
that can be done.
Shanara
Reid: I
think kids are naturally competitive.
I didn't know that I was a competitive person, but I'm very much so, and
debate brought that out in me.
Some people have a small glimmer of talent, or need to be fulfilled in
some manner, and it's in them, and it just takes something to bring it
out. I think that once we get them
here, when they get around all of us, most of us will be here at that point,
they will have someone they can look up to and say, look, they did it. We are from very similar circumstances;
none of us are from rich white high schools. We are all straight out of urban Atlanta; southwest Atlanta,
which is the ghetto. So we see
where they're coming from. During
the institute, we're very unique people; we haven't mainstreamed into white
debate; we haven't changed, we've just found a way to be successful in the
activity. When they get here,
they'll just be like, we're listening to the same music. We speak differently, but we're still
speaking the same slang. They'll
see that we're no different from them; we're just older. They can come up the same way we did,
the same hard work that we did, and that's what they'll see. That's what is so good about the fact
that Melissa was able to get so many African-Americans at the institute to work
this summer, because we will serve as the role models, and we will make friends
with the kids. They'll be
perfectly happy here; they'll get a lot out of the activity.
Johnny
Jester:
I think the same way, yeah, what Shanara said.
[laughter]
I don't think
kids in general like to be beaten, especially kids from the inner-city. I think that's very self-explanatory
about how kids act towards each other.
They don't like to be embarrassed, the don't like to lose. That was the thing that kept me in
debate, because my first round, I got my butt whooped, and I didn't like that,
I didn't like the feeling of losing.
I didn't know much, I didn't know much about the activity, and I didn't
know much about dealing with people of other races, but I knew one thing:
whenever I was growing up, my mother always told me that if you fall off something,
if you fall of a bike or get your butt whooped, you get up and go do it again
until you don't get your butt whooped.
That's what kept me in debate, and I think that's the hook for a lot of
kids, I don't want to get beat anymore, so I'm going to get it right.
Shanara
Reid:
Then once you get it right, you're sucked into it and you're addicted.
[laughter]
Shawn
Whalen:
I think this may be the flip side of the question. It seems to me, and I'm just guessing, but I'm guessing that
you have had colleagues who started with y'all but who are not here now. I was wondering if you could talk about
some folks' memories who could be sitting on the stage with you guys but chose
to leave. Is there something about
debate that we could change to make that a little easier?
Shanara
Reid:
There are a lot of people who started out with me as a freshman in high school
who are not here today, some of them who are very, very good friends, including
my high school debate partner. I
think that debate can save a lot of people but I don't think that we should put
so many constraints on it to say that it can save everybody, because there's
nothing that can save everybody; it's just a piece of the puzzle. For what it's worth, you can save
somebody, and if you can save one person, that's good enough for me. I don't know what we can change about
debate to make it save more people, but it have saved a lot of people. If you look at the stage, there's quite
a few people. There is a very good
number of people that it has saved, and we're just representative. There are people that went through the
program who aren't debaters now, but they are very successful. I don't think it can save everybody,
but we can try to save who we can.
Just because we can't save everybody is no reason why we shouldn't at
least try to save somebody. It
saved everybody up here. It will
save more people, it's hard, but we just can't save everybody.
Krsna
Tibbs:
Even if they stay in it just one year, that one year's experience could last
them for a lifetime. I don't think
you should look at it as how long someone stays in debate; the goal is to open
up someone's mind, and then the experience that they learn will always stay
with them.
Johnny
Jester:
People always tell me you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them
drink. If a person wants to be
saved bad enough, then they're going to be saved, because of the way the
program works. But you'll never find
those people if you don't reach out.
Kenya
Hansford:
To add to that, with the 140 kids that will be coming here, there are plenty of
kids that went to school with me, elementary school, middle school, high
school, and never set foot outside Atlanta, Georgia. Had it not been for debate, I would be the same way. I think in those experiences outside of
where you are, outside of your environment, realizing that there are no
limitations on what you can do, that alone is enough. Just getting the chance to go somewhere other than where you
live, and getting to see other people and say, oh, I can live there, and the
next place I want to go is California to debate, Florida to debate. You get to all these places and you get
ambitious, and you're like, when I get older, I want to travel too. So that means I need to get, you know
... a career ...
[laughter]
Debate pushes
you, it gives you that umph.
Chris
Wheatley:
I wanted to ask, especially initially earlier in your debate careers when you
weren't at home on the weekend, and weren't hanging with the friends that you
grew up with in elementary school and middle school, and you start going to
debate tournaments, and you came back, and your friends asked, hey, what were
you doing? And you said I went to
a debate tournament. What was the
response to that by your friends?
[laughter]
Eric
Mathes:
I was kind of happy to leave home, actually. I was happy to leave my friends out there, they could drink
and smoke all they wanted to. I
kind of enjoyed leaving. But when
I came back, they said, what did you do?
I said I went to a debate tournament. And then they were like, uh, a debate tournament? What did you argue back and forth
about? I said it was more than
that; you get to meet different people, you get to have a lot of fun. You're still having fun. It was different responses from
different people. My good friends
said this sounds kind of interesting, but people who wanted to put me down, who
were probably jealous because of where I am now, [they said] oh man, you're
nothing but an old nerd ... you should have been living with us ... I said it's
not about all that; it's about going out and meeting different people and
having a lot of fun.
Shanara
Reid: I
had some totally different responses.
There were some people who were just really impressed. Dr. Moss would let us take our trophies
home after the tournament, and you'd come back on Monday, you'd be walking
through the cafeteria with this big, huge trophy, and people would be like,
where'd you get that from? What
happened? What's that all
about? They wanted to ask
questions about it, and a lot of people were impressed; it gives you a status
symbol as being very intelligent; people respect that. Even if they think you're a nerd,
they'll respect that you're a nerd, and they'll respect that you're smart, that
you're doing something with your life, and sometimes that brings other people
into the activity who want to be the same thing. But there are other people who say, psssht, you're a nerd, I
want to be out on the weekend partying, and all of that, and I was like, well,
I can wait until college to do all of that ...
[laughter]
I never
worried about it. I had serious
problems in high school with people, because of debate in a way, because I got
to be very arrogant and very conceited.
I knew I was good, I knew I was smart, and I didn't care if anybody
didn't think I was smart or good, because I knew I was smart, and you deal with
that, or whatever. But debate does
so much more for you, that it worth risking it.
Mike
Edmond:
In your opening comments, you mentioned, or you sounded like you had spiritual
experiences, and perhaps you did.
I'm wondering, when you said that debate saved you, I'm wondering in the
debate itself, was it the resolution, do you think? Was it the research, the topic?
Shanara
Reid: It was the activity itself, just
participating. When you are in our
situation, you are taught that you have to be twice as good as the white man to
go anywhere. That's something you
hear from like elementary on up.
What happens is that you start to compete, and you start to win, and
that gives you the self confidence in yourself that you might not have
otherwise had. You might not have
participated in anything else.
Once you have self confidence, once you start believing in yourself,
there are no limits to what you can accomplish. That's all of what debate did for me. It's all about self confidence and the
self-esteem, and myself, that's why I'm here. It's not because of winning the debate in a vacuum. It's because of what that brought to
me, and I think that's what it brings to most of us. It brings us self-confidence. Even if I don't want to debate anymore, I'm self-confident
in myself, and I believe that I can achieve. The fact that I was winning tournaments as an
African-American female on the Georgia circuit says a lot about me, and I'm not
afraid to let you know that I won, because I'm very proud of what I
accomplished.
Eric
Mathes:
When I said it saved me, I think it was just the sheer opportunity, just the
sheer fact that debate was there.
It gave me something to do after the school bell rang. If all of us would have just gone home
and sat aimlessly with nothing to do, a lot of the influences would have gotten
to me. Instead, I was staying after
school, making sure that I understood "self-actualization" [a popular
debate argument]...
[laughter]
So it saved
me. My parents made sure I knew
that black people and white people can get along. I already knew all that, I just wanted to be a knucklehead. Debate just simply saved me from
probably myself.
Sean
Banks:
I believe that debate helped me from having an idle mind, you know, you have an
idle mind, you have nothing to do, you just squander it off, and you get into
things you're not supposed to be into, like drugs and alcohol, and all of those
things. I believe that, speaking
for myself and my partner, we really didn't have a choice as far as ...
[laughter]
school,
because our coach was constantly saying you need to be in here working; winning
is what this is all about. That
competitive mind is what kept us in it.
I believe that if it was not for our debate coach, Dr. Moss, and other
people like Ms. Wade and Ms. Maddox, we would actually be out on the street; we
would be doing what other kids are doing.
We would have three or four kids and things like that. But it's because debate takes up your
time. It takes up a lot of time,
where you could be sitting selling weed or something like that; you're sitting
there trying to write out blocks or trying to figure out normativity [a popular
but complex debate argument]
[laughter]
Still haven't
figured it out. Debate takes up so
much time. That's one of the
beauties of debate, is that it takes up time, you just don't have time to just
sit.
Chris
Wheatley:
So you would say that it would substantially reduce juvenile crime in the
United States?
[laughter]
Johnny
Jester:
I was going to say that when you were asking whether or not it was the
resolution that changes your life, because we debated juvenile crime, and I
remember talking to Sean at the beginning of the year when we found out what the
topic was, and I said who knows this more thanus?
[laughter]
And it does a
lot. The literature that you read,
you get to read things about racism, and you get to hear different people talk
about racism, and hear what they have to say, and how they feel about it, and
you get to compare it to the way you feel about it. The literature and the research itself does a lot for you.
Melissa
Wade:
Tell them the story about debating Pace's Urban Debate League case when you
were negative. When you and Sean
had do debate Pace's Urban Debate League case, and you had to be negative, do
you remember that round?
Sean
Banks:
Yeah. The one where they used our
school as an example of debate and how successful it was. It was hard for us to say that this
wouldn't solve because this school sucks or something ...
[laughter]
We couldn't
say that, because you're in a catch-22; how do you say your own school is
bad? But then we were trying to
figure out how to you know, slide by, you know, make it look good.
Johnny
Jester:
When they stood up and said "Wade, 1995," I went, now how do we
indict that author?
[laughter]
I mean, he
was talking about my coach, and I couldn't say our coach was wrong, our coach
was bad.
Chris
Wheatley
[coach of Pace]: They beat us on growth.
Sean Banks: No, it was
smoking. We said that between
debate rounds, kids go out in the halls and smoke cigarettes, and therefore,
because smoking is a crime since most of them are under eighteen, then debate
didn't solve. That's how we got
out of it.
Alfred Snider: My colleagues have told
me, and this is in reference to New York city, that fast-talking, evidence
debate is not appropriate, is not going to be successful. What do you think? What should I tell them?
Krsna
Tibbs:
I don't think that's true at all.
When I first started debate at Therrell, we went to tournaments with two
handbooks and two index card boxes.
It makes me feel good to see Shanara and Sean and Jonathan carrying on
the tradition that we started. I
think that if you expose people to debate at institutes, they can learn how to
debate; they can learn how to debate fast. I don't think you should say, well, you can't learn how to
debate with evidence. You have to
research.
Johnny
Jester:
You [asking question to Alfred Snider] said that your colleagues said that
fast-talking evidence debate wouldn't last?
Alfred
Snider:
Right, that it wouldn't work in an inner-city school.
Johnny
Jester:
Dr. Moss always tells Sean and I, and this is a rule of thumb now, that
arguments win debates, and evidence is there to help. I don't think that's just true. I think that evidence, fast-talking debate will work in
inner-city schools, because it worked in Therrell, and it's working in my old
middle school, Parks Middle School.
And it's working in all of these other middle schools. You would think that middle school kids
would come to high school debate rounds and say, I can't do that because
they're talking too fast, and get scared and run away. But a lot of the kids come up and go:
How do I learn how to do that? How
do I learn to get that fast? Can
you help me get that evidence? Can
you teach me how to get that fast?
How long did it take for you to get that fast, and how long do I have to
stay in the activity until I'm that good?
And I always tell them: years and years.
Shanara
Reid:
What did you [Tuna Snider] mean by your question, with speed and New York
debate, like it's not fast there, or that they can learn how to get fast?
Alfred
Snider:
Slow-talking value debate without much evidence.
Edward
Lee:
One of the attractions of the activity for me, and I think for a lot of people,
is that there are no rules in the activity. You decide in the debate round exactly what you want the
rules to be; you decide exactly what you want to talk about. I was not a fast debater. My partner was not a fast debater. At nationals, we had a couple of people
nickname us Pokey and Molasses.
[laughter]
For the past
three years, I've debated in the elimination rounds at CEDA nationals, and my
partner has for the past two years.
I think you get from the tournament what you want to debate; there are
ways to counteract the speed. Let
the participants determine what they want the activity to become. Let the activity evolve. It's intellectual anarchy, and that's
what people want.
Sean
Banks:
You wouldn't send a soldier into the jungle to fight with a .45, or something
like that. The speed is a tool
that you use to win rounds, that how I look at it. If it's necessary to use speed to win a round, use it, but
for those cards that are more important, you slow down and speak clearly so
that they can understand. If it's
a better strategy to go slower, then you use that strategy. It's like Edward said, you set your own
standards, you create your own standards for the whole round. Whichever weapon is best to win the
round, that's the one you use. My
partner and I, we tend to have a thing where one of us is being more
aggressive, going real fast, and the other one is more logical, and using
theory at a slower pace. Whatever
weapon is best. In New York, if
it's better for them to use a faster speed, then do it. It would be real bad for kids in New
York to be debating, going real slow, and then you have someone come in from
another state come in and say, well, I want speed, I want somebody to go
fast. It's all about strategy.
Melissa
Wade:
Are you going to defend value debate, Eric?
Eric
Mathes:
Yes I am.
Johnny
Jester:
I think Sean will help me testify to the fact that we've been whooped the
hardest by people who go slow. I
just wanted to say that I don't think the speed and the evidence matters all
the much; an argument is an argument.
Krsna
Tibbs:
We won all our debates my first few years at Therrell with little to no
evidence. My first year there, I
think I cut like one card.
[laughter]
I believe
it's definitely possible to have debates without evidence, but we make people
cut cards regardless.
Shanara
Reid:
Eric, you wanted to defend value debate?
Edward
Lee:
Policy debate doesn't exclude values.
They are interconnected.
[applause]
You can't
have a policy without analyzing the assumptions behind the policy. They are one and the same. Policy debate just allows you a forum
to analyze the policy discussion and the values. You need them both; you have to have them both in any
discussion.
Ede
Warner:
I have two questions. The first
one is for everybody, and I'd like everybody to think for just a second while I
ask the second one. A second ago,
I kind of challenged you, a bit of a trick question, to ask you what you were
willing to do. Carol and Shanara
talked about sexism and racism that still exists in the activity, that it's a
disincentive for people to stay in the activity. I'd like you to think about what this group out here
[gestures to audience], who is committed to sticking around in the activity,
can do to make it a better place for the next generation. The second question is specific for
Kenya and Shanara, and it relates back to when you were in my lab a few years
ago. One of the moments that stuck
with me since I left this institute three years ago was when we would have lab
meetings, and at points in a three and four hour lab meeting, when people would
start talking and it would break down, you two never stopped cutting cards or
focusing on what you were doing.
And I want to know why, when all the white kids, and me, were talking,
you stayed focused like I'd never seen before? And I want to know why.
Shanara
Reid:
That's a really interesting thing.
I'm not sure why we were like that. I think that debate was something that we were very serious
about, and I remember some of the discussions they were having, and I just
didn't damn well want to participate in them, because they were a little bit
controversial, and I knew how upset I can get, and I didn't want to deal with
all of that, so I continued to cut cards.
But not only that, I was committed.
I was very committed. I
wanted to do very well.
Ede
Warner:
Why did you want to do so well?
Shanara
Reid:
Because debate became it for me.
That was all I thought I was good at. Before, when I was in middle school, I didn't think I was
good at anything else. Debate
became my activity;
you weren't going to come and run my activity. This was mine.
It belongs to me. It was so
very important for me to cut as many cards as I could, so that I would be
prepared for the next year. It's
all about the commitment. I could
sit anywhere and cut cards; I didn't care what was going on, because I had
focus, I had goals;
I wanted to win.
Kenya
Hansford:
One thing that kept us focsed was you [Ede Warner]. Before you came along, I had never seen a black college
coach before, and I was like, this guy must be really, really good. I felt inspired to do better, and to do
well. Secondly, I like business,
and I like to see what investments turn out. And when people invest money in me, I feel like I have an
obligation to do what I'm supposed to do.
Now maybe some of those kids sitting in that room didn't have
scholarships, but I know my momma didn't pay one red cent for me to be sent
there [to the Barkley Forum Institute].
To me, I felt I was obligated to listen to the Barkley Forum, to
everybody here, to do well, or to do my best, to stay on task, and that's the
same philosophy I use here at Emory; I'm on scholarship again, and I'm the same
way. Other people can drink on the
weekends, or whatever, but Emory has invested money in me, and it will not be a
bad investment.
Edward
Lee: To
answer your initial question, I think that the thing that we can all do is not
just to be the kritik, but be the solvency for the kritik; don't just
come to a conference and say, "We need to do something about the sexism
and the racism that exists in our institutions," or "We need to add
more minorities in our institutions." Reach back. Do
something. Aggressively recruit
more women, aggressively recruit more minorities to your program. Go and donate more time, more attention
to those people. It doesn't
necessarily take money; it takes the opportunity, and it takes attention. That's what got me into the activity;
Ms. Maddox didn't come and throw money at me. She said, "Edward, I think this would be a good
activity for you, and I would like for you to do this." And Tuna spoke earlier about not just
reaching out one time, because I didn't receive her hand that first time; I was
like, "No, I don't think so."
But she kept reaching out for me.
And I'm here to say that if you continue to reach out, they will reach
out their hand and welcome you.
And that what it takes.
Shanara
Reid: Especially
at tournaments. It's difficult for
us there; we feel very much alone.
If Edward wasn't there, if Krsna wasn't there; if Kenya especially
wasn't there, I felt like I was the only one, and that's very hard for someone
who grew up being used to being around people who look just like me. And if you're there, and you see us,
let us know that you care. The
more that we know that people care how hard we are working, the more that we
want to work. The reason I debate
at Emory is not because I love debate, but because Melissa was here to say,
"It's OK if you don't want to do this; I understand." But I think that you have an
obligation, I think that you can be a role model. Every tournament that I go to with her, if there's something
that happens that I'm upset about, she's very much about sitting down for hours
to discuss it and make me feel better and to affirm what it is what I'm trying
to do. If you have
African-American debaters, don't just recruit them into your program and leave
them dangling, because they'll need that support, because there are so few of
us in the activity. And even if
you're not the coach, we're very receptive about someone coming up to us at
tournaments and saying, "How are you doing at this tournament, have you
had any problems?"
Krsna
Tibbs: I
know that helped me, was that when I was debating in high school, we didn't
have assistant coaches or anything.
And now, with what I've learned in college, I can take that to help
them, or I can take that to the college level. If Melissa comes to me and asks me to work at this
institute, I will do so for as long as she wants, because I think that what she
is doing at this institute is very unique and important.
Johnny
Jester: I
think a very important thing to do, as far as far as getting rid of racism, and
sexism, and the other bad things that are in the activity now, is to make sure
that when we notice it, that we point it out, and it stays exposed so that
something is done about it.
Nothing is ever going to be solved by sitting around and going,
"Debate is racist and it's sexist, alright, let's go." We know it's there, but I think we're
ignoring it. We should point it
out and not be afraid to say, "This is wrong. You shouldn't be doing this." Like you said, a lot of people have been raised to think
that is right, a lot of people have been raised to think that men are to
dominate women, or that white people are to dominate black people, or that
white people are the enemy and you can't trust them. It's very important that when we see someone acting on these
teachings, to point it out to them and say, "Look, that's not exactly
true, and let me show you why it's not true."
Carol
Winkler: I
think that regardless of whether you're female, black, or white male, we share
of lot of these things. Thinking
about the reaction I'm getting from the panel, in terms of some of these things
that were described, I think the coaches' responsibility is to focus on how to
combat those trivialization strategies, and to provide coping skills for the
students to use; to work as teachers with regard to those kinds of things, and
those are things that can be used all throughout society, not just in debate.
Sean
Banks: I
believe that the key is to interact with other students and to make sure that
your students attempt to make an effort to interact with other students at
debate tournaments, because a lot of times, as Shanara has said, it can be
scary, it can be intimidating; we just all huddle together at a table. Fortunately now that my partner and I
have gotten used to debating, that doesn't happen anymore. Another good thing is that yourselves
can come and interact with other teams.
I know that Chris [Wheatley] comes up to Johnny and me all the time,
talking with us, interacting with us about how did our rounds go, what did you
learn, what didn't you learn, can I help you with anything, our team is going
to beat you next round ...
[laughter]
And it
all helps; it's all in fun and games, but it makes you feel better. It makes you know that people care, you
know, that we can do this, we can work together. And as long as you put forth the effort, you know, that you
sincerely care in your heart, and try to reach out to kids, I believe that
is definitely the key.
Johnny
Jester: I
think everybody just wants to be loved.
And the love that you can feel is similar to the love that you feel at
home. I know Sean and I ... I
don't think I've told you this yet ... but Sean and I have had conversations
millions of times where we sit together and say, "Great, we're going back
to Emory. We get to hug Ms.
Wade." It's a love that you
feel and you can't describe it by words, because when you see her, and she's
just smiling, and it doesn't matter what's going on, she's still smiling, and
you walk up to her and you hug her, and it's like you can stay there and tell
her everything, just lay everything out on the table, and tell her, "It's
going this way," or "It's just not going right." She's always there. Even if she doesn't have the answer,
she's always there to go, "It's going to be alright."
Sean
Banks: It's
like she doesn't walk, she just floats ...
[laughter]
Sean
Banks: You
see her, and you just kind of want to kneel ...
[laughter]
Shanara
Reid: She
has that power over you, she is just loving you, and I will work at this institute
until the day I die because I love Melissa Wade so very much.
Eric
Mathes: You
could walk up to her and strangle her, and she would still say, "I love
you, man."
Shanara
Reid: Kenya
and I, we were not coming back this summer. We were determined, we were not working here; we were going
to make more
money. And I thought about it; and
I was like, I just can't say that to Melissa Wade; I just can't.
Krsna
Tibbs: You
can have a midterm on Thursday night, and two days before your test, on
Tuesday, you can spend all day here.
Johnny
Jester: What's
beautiful is that everybody who's involved in the activity is capable of giving
that kind of love. It's just that
the people who are involved don't give that kind of love, because they're
afraid, and I don't know what they're afraid of; I just don't understand
it. But it's important that you
give that kind of love, the kind of love that says, "Even if you lose all
of your rounds today, we're still going to love you."
Shanara
Reid: Unconditional. She loves us for who we are; not
because we're tokens, or because we're poster children for the program. She has committed herself to being
involved in our lives,
and even if we don't debate, whatever we're doing in our lives, she'll be proud
of us, she'll keep in touch with us, and we know that. We respond to that type of love, and
she loves all of us; she loves all of us, everyone of us up on this stage, as
if we were her children, and to me, she's like my mother away from home. This is my momma at Emory, this is the
person I go to when I have any problems; this is where I go to first, even
before I call home to my parents.
I've never seen anything like last summer, when Johnny and them had to
go meet with her last summer, and at the end of the meeting, he was just like,
"We love you!" And I just told them, that's what it's
all about; that's the type of love that everybody in this room is capable of,
and if you exhibit it; this is the result. We are the result.
Sean
Banks: If
you show that kind of love, that kind of compassion to new students, that's
wonderful. And I can say that I
speak for all of us, we really, really appreciate that, because that is what is
needed to make this thing work; everyone has to work together. Dr. Moss always comes in with the,
"You've got to work hard," but he also always says, "What have
you learned? How have you learned
from your mistakes? How do you
know not to do that again?"
He takes that time ... it's all about, what have you learned.
Shanara
Reid: We
love Dr. Moss as much as Melissa, because he made the same commitment to all of
our lives. I've been graduated for
two years, and I still talk to Dr. Moss.
He is still very significant in my life.
Johnny
Jester: It
becomes more like father and mother.
You're with your father and mother five days a week, and then on the
weekends, you're with them.
And it would be extremely impossible for me to feel like they were total
strangers and then go with them all over the place on the weekend.
Kenya
Hansford: I
want to get back to race relations, and how, as coaches, you can deal with
students, and keep students in the activity. One key thing with us, and I will always remember this,
whenever I have a conflict with anyone other than a person of color, on this
campus, or anywhere, in the world, when we would come back from rounds, we were
like, "Oh, that was really racist what they did to us," and
"They weren't supposed to do that," and "That was against the
rules," and "They're treating us like this because we're
black." And Ms. Maddox was
always like, "So, what did you do?" She would always bring it back to what you could have done
to make the situation better. She
was not saying, "OK, that was not racist." She was teaching us that you can cope with any type of
situation; I don't care if nobody on the circuit changes. If no one else comes to the realization
that they should not be racist or sexist, you can still succeed in this
activity. If there are no more
Melissa Wades; if no one else ever comes along to do this, that does not mean
that you can't excel in this activity, and it does not mean that you can't deal
in the world and get what you want.
And she always taught us that; she always taught us that it's us. Those 140 kids coming from New York,
it's up to each one of them to make this a success for them when they're
here. We'll give them our all when
they're here, and you'll give them your all when they're here, and you'll give
your own debaters your all; but it's up to each individual person to decide
that this will not stop me. And
that's true for every minority person that has ever succeeded in this
world. Very seldom were there
white people standing there with open arms saying, "Come do this, we
really welcome you to do this."
To have that kind of opportunity set in front of you, that's very
unique. For us to come past
obstacles that were a lot bigger than that, I very much doubt that we won't
have some kids that will be successful in this activity, because we've got open
arms. And for those who don't have
open arms, well, they're going to realize that when Shanara wins the NDT, black
girls can debate. They'll figure
that out. But a racist judge will
not stop Shanara Reid from doing that.
Krsna
Tibbs: For
us, Dr. Moss always said, "No excuses." We'd say, "We're debating Westminster 'A', we're not
going to win." He'd say,
"I don't want to hear that."
[laughter]
He
challenged us, made us work hard.
And that was one of the reasons why I went on to debate in college.
Johnny
Jester: I
know another thing Dr. Moss always says is, "Never blame a bad round on
the judge." It's never the
judge's fault. Dr. Moss says that
it's your job to go in, and make sure that you adjust to the judge, and I think
that's a very important thing for debaters, as well as coaches, and whoever is
involved in the activity, to make sure that they're flexible enough to adjust
to the person and try to see things from the way they're seeing things. Just like Dr. Moss always tells us, try
to see the round the way the judge is seeing it, and that way, you can have a
better chance of winning, because you know what needs to change. That's another key thing; try to see
things from the perspective of the debater (if you're a coach), and try to see
things from the perspective of the coach (if you're a debater). You can make a difference that way,
because you can understand where they're coming from.
Melissa
Wade: It's
way over our time, and Jimmy [camera operator] has to be fed ...
[laughter]
Thank
you.
[applause,
end of Ideafest]